Message Board

Sc21

Scott Trepel

Scott, thank you for going to the trouble of posting the stamp as previously auctioned by you last year. My word isn't the appearance improved with those irritating untidy perfs tidied up!

I accept your words of wisdom. Food for thought. This is a fantastic stamp. Nice to see auctoneers supporting one another.  Nick

Sphincter Tightening

John Cunningham

John, spoken like a true non graded stamp collector! Bit like lusting after a friend's wife. I can look and appreciate the beauty but realise I am off limits. The very fact I can find reasons not to go over board about this stamp is that REASON is putting the brakes on my emotion. How many multiples of a stamp's value is  pristine colour and a red cancel worth? Some might argue that IS the difference.The fact is tho' that the difference in perceived value between a PSE 95 and a PSE 98 is simple enormous. Just look at previous auction results. It is the danger of that 3 point slippage to which I refer ie PSE reducing the PF 98 to a PSE 95.

That is the only point I was making. I spend the bucks and have learnt from bitter experience to make these value judgements. Nothing is tightening here except my self control. However, I can quite understand your distain that I should be talking about stamps in terms of points, and 3 at that. But it is a critical element to the maturing of my collection.

ps Christopher Rupp - I bought a substantial amount of simply wonderful material from Chris over the years - never cheap but always conservatively described. Chris then discovered grading and embraced the concept - and his earlier prices now look reasonable indeed

Sc21

Matthew Liebson

Matt - collecting the stamp or the grade? What a provocative question! It's both. First there's the look. Then there's the question of condition. If I am going to pay multiples of a stamps SMQ value I need to know condition is sound. I cannot tell that from a photo and hard experience over time has taught me that not all certs are equal, not only in the grading level, but in calling faults.  As it happens I already own a glorious 21 graded 95, and recently. This Shreves stamp appeals to my eye, nothing else. It's simply a cracker. My whole classic collection is based on PSE grades and it is important that major purchases improve the grading of a stamp I already own. I understand that to a non grader, even dare I say it, a Postal Historian, yoiks like me appear to be simplistic relying on 3rd party grading to tell me what is good and what is not. Wish it were that simple. Do let me reasure you in 95 percent of cases my natural inclination corresponds to the grade a stamp attracts. Nick

Nutmeg

Richard,

The strange thing is the estimate was $200 and my high bid was $250, more than the estimate. The book showed it selling for $280. I guess they expected a bit more than the estimate in this case.

Nutmeg

Gregory Shoults - happens a lot with Nutmeg.  They own most of the material and appear to be pretty strict about their reserve (which is unknown but usually somewhere around 60% of their "estimate").  If they don't get the bids they want (presumably to recoup their cost?), they simply take back and try again.  I've seen items listed 5 or 6 times, and have lost to the book more than once only to see them reappear.  Sometimes they eventually lower their expectations, other times the item ultimately disappears only to reappear on ebay.  I just bought an item from Droege on ebay that came in Nutmeg's packaging.  

Speaking of which I could kick myself for bidding too low on a "way" cover in yesterday's Nutmeg.  It was misdescribed so I thought it would sell reasonably.  I was wrong, was the underbidder at 150% of their estimate.  But, I did win a lot of DC covers in which I spotted a hidden gem that I needed for my county collection.

Sc 21

Matt L-Clear and to the point.  After saying "This is a staggeringly exquisite stamp. Centred minimisculed low but otherwise extraordinarily centred for the issue - and to cap it all with a stunning red cancel. This is a stamp to die for and I would love for it to reside in my collection." It must be incongruous to expend less than the ultimate resources to acquire the example.  Do you buy an item because it makes your sphincter tight, or tightens someone elses?

A cover from the Martin sale puckered me up so much that I may have well produced diamonds from the back of my front.  If someone had said 'Well that cover is just a 95" I would have said "well that is quite a bit below my blood pressure, weight, and life expectancy, so I must have found a bargain"

John C (former and unremorseful regular client of Christopehr Rupp)

Scott 21

I should clarify my earlier statement.

Other than Position 99R2's, I have never seen another Scott 21 with such character.

Relisted Item???

I was checking out the latest Nutmeg sale coming up in September and discovered a lot that I had placed a bid with an agent for in an auction this past June. The lot sold to the book in June and now has resurfaced in this new  sale. This seems a bit strange and makes me question why it has appreared again. The description does not include anything new so it makes me wonder why??? Any thoughts on what could have happened I would be interested

 Hi Richard

 Can you give me any info on these cancels, or at least your opinion of where it came from and why there appear tobe two "paid" markings on it??
http://sciencestockimages.com/ebay/082608cardscovers/frankfurtpiece.JPG"

Scott 21

Nick K:

For those who don't know it, we sold that stamp in 2007 (Sale 940, lot 1499). Photo attached. My description then was:

1c Blue, Ty. III (21). Position 65R4, huge break in bottom curved line and a full 2.5 mm break in top line, perfectly centered with entire design framed by white, deep rich color beautifully complemented by red "New-York circular datestamp

EXTREMELY FINE GEM. WITHOUT QUESTION THIS IS ONE OF THE FINEST USED EXAMPLES OF THE 1857 PERFORATED ONE-CENT TYPE III IN EXISTENCE. A GORGEOUS STAMP IN EVERY RESPECT -- CENTERING, COLOR, IMPRESSION, PERFORATIONS AND CANCELLATION.

Ex Knapp (acquired in that sale and kept in the dark for the past half-century, thus the incredibly rich color and freshness). With 2007 P.F. certificate

Nick, buy it. I've never seen another copy of Scott 21 with such character.

As for the PF grading 5 points above PSE, possibly, but it's also true that PSE grading before Dr. Litle came along was, shall we say, more subjective. He has added a degree of objectivity which has improved the process, both at PSE and the PF. We're all much better at it than we used to be.

Markham Redux...and closure.....Part 2

He spent most of yesterday morning researching the net, and found the proof he needed - that the 3 covers under discussion had been addressed by John Markham, not Albert Markham.

Here are two covers that Albert wrote.  Completely different handwriting than the other 3.

Markham Redux...and closure.....Part 1

Richard.....before going to bed last night, I forwarded your last posting.   When I returned from work today, I found an urgent email reply.

From your posted message yesterday:
5/12/71 use with 10c 1869 on a mourning cover - this is Paul's cover that he bought about 15 year ago from a dealer, didn't say which one.
6/13/71 use (not a mourning cover) - is this the same cover as shown in the pic?  If so, its from the 1980 Turner sale and is a mourning cover.  The date seems right, based on the early August receipt docketing.  Paul does not know where the cover resides today.

Nick:  are you collecting the stamp, or the fact that it might be a 98?  If you agree with the auctioneer's assessment that it's undoubtedly the finest #21, go for it (and if it's the best, what does it matter if it gets a 98 at PSE or a 95?  Not all 95s are created equal).  If not, the PSE population for used #21 is 7 -- perhaps you have one of them or have seen them and are in a position to compare the stamps.

National Postal Museum & Philatelic Societies Membership Promotion

Beginning in 2008, the Smithsonian National Postal Museum created a free monthly e-newsletter – Postmark, which features upcoming events, new objects in the collection, exhibits, public programs and general information regarding the museum. Postmark allows subscribers to stay up-to-date on the museum happenings – both in-house and online.  

In collaboration with six different philatelic societies, the National Postal Museum is conducting a promotion for interested persons to sign-up for Postmark. With a subscription, the individual is entered to win a free membership or renewal to the Postal Museum and one of the participating societies.   


Participating societies:   
American First Day Cover Society --- Promotional Code: AFDCSNPM  

The United States Philatelic Classics Society --- Promotional Code: USPCSNPM   

Ebony Society Philatelic Events and Reflections --- Promotional Code: ESPERNPM  

United States Stamp Society --- Promotional Code: USSSNPM   

American Topical Association --- Promotional Code: ATANPM  

American Air mail Society --- Promotional Code: AAMSNPM  

To subscribe to Postmark and enter for the free society membership, visit http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/Postmark/index.html before September 15, 2008.   Individuals should include the promotional code for the society of interest on the Postmark signup page.   Winners will be contacted on Sept. 16. Only one entry per unique name and email address.

The National Postal Museum will not give the names and email addresses it receives through this promotion to any third party. They will only be used for subscribers to receive the Museum's e-newsletter

Grading PF-PSE

Just pulled out at random 18 stamps where the PF grades higher than the PSE. If anyone is interested in this obscure aspect of the hobby I will ask my tech Guru and BIG BOSS Kamila to post..

Washington, D. C. Numeral Cancellations

Alan Campbell  -  Thanks for the additional information.

PF-PSE grades

As I reach for my helmet and head for the bunker I want to discuss a growing problem with graded material in auction.

Today I received Spink/Shreves Sept 11-13 catalogue full, as ever, of quite wonderful material. With the cat come an equally impressive mail shot from the PF, extremely professionally packaged and punchy. The PF is certainly now up to date with user friendly multiple application forms and not nervous to strutt their stuff. About time too.

But one aspect bothers and it is highlighted with one particular lot in Shreves. Lot 1064 Sc21, 1c blue Type III. This is a staggeringly exquisite stamp. Centred minimisculed low but otherwise extraordinarily centred for the issue - and to cap it all with a stunning red cancel. This is a stamp to die for and I would love for it to reside in my collection.

But there is a slight problem. It has a 2007 PF cert graded 98. The first thought that cannot help but flicker across my mind is 'why not a PSE graded 98 cert?'. Anyone in their right senses would get this stamp to the PSE quicker than s--t off a shovel. Without excepton it has been PSE graded stamps which have got astronomical prices NOT PF graded - and with good reason - PF grading is generally 5 points more generous than PSE grading  - there are exceptions where they  grade equally and even sometimes lower but these occasions are rare. Grading freaks like me know that and will discount PF grades accordingly. But back to this stamp. Is it fair for me to say to the owner/auctioneer 'look I'll bid for this but want a correspondingly high PSE graded cert post sale'? Hardly likely either will agree and who can blame them. But it gives one a feeling that perhaps this HAS been submitted to the PSE and came back with a tiny flaw or graded, say, 95 due to the centerering being low.

I am certain most auctioneers know what I am talking about and they are sure between a rock and a hard place. But let me assure COLLECTORS  everywhere that had this stamp been graded PSE 98 I would have joined the throng wanting the stamp.

I also think it is misleading for auctioneers to say that a stamp is the highest graded by either PSE or PF. These two orgs at the current time do not appear to grade using quite the same stringent criteria so this comparison is misleading.

My last shot is that the last HRH cat was full of descriptions including the note -  'would grade very high'. If that was the case I would suggest they, or the owner, take three weeks out and get the stamps graded before auctioning.

Nice wallpaper, if someone is interested in sprucing up their "stamp den"

Just thought some of you might like to know that I'm not going to be bidding on this lot, so you don't have to worry about hurting my feelings if you buy it.  Unfortunately, the Euro is just too strong these days for me to make a run at it (as if that's the only reason).

https://www.davidfeldman.com/cgi-bin/lotbrowse.pl?lotid=114097

Better pictures and descriptions starting on page 122 in the pdf version of the catalog which can be downloaded here: http://www.davidfeldman.com/uploads/downloads/085/rarities/86-135.pdf (6.5 meg file - not for slow phone lines) 

Framed up, would add a nice bit of decoration to any wall.
Chip

Washington, D. C. Numeral Cancellations

Ginny: To elaborate on Richard F.'s post, the main D. C. post office for some reason was using three sets of numeral cancellers simultaneously in the 1880-1884 period. The numeral in three-ring target is more common than the fishtail ellipses or the numeral in barred double circle. These are steel duplex cancelers. Most large PO's at this time had adapted the New York system, where specific numerals were assigned to specific clerks for greater accountability. These cancels are typically found on domestic mail, but the main D.C. post office did not have a foreign department per se, as mail going overseas typically went by train to a major port, such as New York or in this case, San Francisco, so they are also found on foreign destination covers.

Markham

David S - I just did a quick check of my China scans (to 1872 is all I have time for now) and find 3 covers (all addressed by same person): 5/12/71 use with 10c 1869 on a mourning cover, 6/13/71 use (not a mourning cover) with pair 10c 1869's, and the 9/12/1871 Ainsworth mourning cover.

Remind me and I'll check later covers next week for you.

Markham

Many thanks to all who replied, either by email or via the board.  I have copied/pasted everything and forwarded it onwards.

But I had to ask about the significance of the 9 October 1871 date, and this is what I was told, paraphrased......

There were 2 Markham brothers in the Far East during the late 1860's -early 1870's.
Albert, a Royal Navy officer; and John, who worked for the British Consular Service.  Both can be placed in various Chinese locations as part of their official duties.  My contact wants to determine which of the two addressed those covers.  Since John Markham's date of death is recorded as 9 October 1871, any Markham correspondence covers addressed in that particular handwriting after the October date would mean Albert wrote them.  So that's why 9 October 1871 is important to him.

Answer to quiz

From a song by Michael Martin Murphy (a semi-local):

"The real cowboy's the one in the middle.
He ain't there just by fate.
'Cause first he don't have to drive, and then
he don't have to mess with the gate"

Making contact with the Invisible Man

Leonard,

Just received an email using the new address, and from the US. Please try again. It's quite terrible to be seemingly so ignored.  Nick

Cowboy Quiz For Nick

Nick K - Three cowboys, dressed identically, sitting in the front seat of a truck. How to you tell which one is the "real" cowboy just from where he sits?

Washington "5"

Ginny - That is the "normal" postmark of the period at Washington. The Naval address and destination are the primary appeals of the cover of course.

Mail US to Japan 1881

Just picked up this cover at a show Sunday, showing a San Francisco back stamp .  Can someone give me any info on the circle cancels with the "5".  Thanks.

e-mail

Nick

both your new and your old e-mail address
didn't work, just tried 9:25 AM EDT

Leonard

Leonard@pbbooks.net

New email address Nick Kirke

Please note the email address that works best for me is agenturakirke@seznam.cz

Got to rush - need to buy war paint for the badlands next week .....

PMSS to China and Japan

Dave S - The Markam correspondence is immense. I would think there are more dated later than 1871.  I guess you haven't seen the book ....

Anyhow, if a cover from China has a USPO Shanghai marking, it went via Japan by PMSS contracted steamers. The PMSS route began in Hong Kong.The sailings to 1876 are listed in the book. Mails from HK to US were much faster via PMSS than via France or GB.

Matthew Kewriga

Email was resent :)

Mail China - USA

Dave S.

In 1867 the PMSSC was contracted by the Post Office Dept. for a mail service between San Francisco and Yokohama. The service commenced in May of that year. I suspect from that date mails to and from the west coast went via that route. It would however have remained quicker for mails from the east of the US to have gone via New York and Britain then on via Marseilles with P & O.

On May 10th 1869 the Trans Continental Rail Road was completed and I suspect from that date the vast majority of mails for China, Japan, Hong Kong and other far east locations would have gone via San Francisco.

Most Expeditious Route to Hong Kong

Dave S.,
In the 1890s the standard route to Hong Kong was from San Francisco via Hawaii and Japan.  In the PMG's report for 1894 showing weights by route, there were no alternative routes to Hong Kong.  I suspect that was true earlier.

Addenda:  A little further reading indicates that by 1894 use was being made of fast steamers leaving from Tacoma, WA, to reach Japan and China as well as San Francisco.  The report seems pleased with the fact that there were now opportunities for up to 5 dispatches to the far east each month with 3 from SF and 2 from Tacoma.

Interesting side note:  Mail to Pacific Rim countries except for South America was via San Francisco.  Singapore and Bangkok were the crossover destinations with both San Francisco and London routes being used.

Markham follow-up

I have been doing some googling, and found an 1864 Markham cover as Lot 927 from Zurich Asia Auctions Sale 10.  However the picture is not available.

Matt K.....Since this is on a Bennett web site, is a picture of that lot available?

Research Question - US mail from Shanghai and Hong Kong

Referencing cover #10455 and cover #4618, both from the Markham correspondence, originating in Shanghai during 1871.

1) Is anyone aware of other covers from this particular correspondence postmarked later than October 9th, 1871?  So far the latest usage is dated September 12th  (see 10455).

2) What was the most expeditious route for mail in the early 1870's from Hong Kong to San Francisco?  By way of Yokohama?

locating someone

Been calling Bill Longley for almost two weeks..anyone who sees him pass him a message

thansk 

alan b

BIll Longley: Please call me at the office.I never received your package and your phone will not accept any further messages!!

Praga2008

At last is the exhibit finished and will be delivered tomorrow to the commisioner.
I will thank all who have helped me. It have been a great help and now I can only hope the best. :O)

Thanks again - I hope I will be able to "pay" it back - one way or another. :O)

LUXPHILA, National Belgian Championship of Philately, Sep. 2008

Luxembourg and the Postal Consequences of World War I (1914 - 1919)

I have the opportunity to show six frames (90 pages) about field post and censorship related to Luxembourg during and shortly after the "Great War" at Luxphila in Marche-en-Farenne. As US troops occupied the country from November 1918 into 1919, some pages are dealing with military mail and the US censorship. If anybody is interested in a CD (in French), please send me a mail. Feedback is highly appreciated! 

Colorado Historical Society Exhibit

If anybody is going to be in Denver in the next nine months, The Colorado Historical Society is having a 150th anniversary of the founding of Denver exhibit. Included, going up today, is an exhibit of Colorado Territory postal history as well as an exhibit of Colorado Territorial gold coins. Both are worth seeing.

I will try to do a website for the gold coins soon ...

Exhibit for Prague

Knud-Erik Andersen

What Richard has said about US competition is also true for FEPA and FIP shows. You will be marked down for having three title pages, there should only be one. If you are going to Prague make sure you go to the Judges Critique and also insist that, if possible, the lead judge for the panel that judged your exhibit spends some time with you at the exhibit.

In future I would recommend that your title page gives the plan of the exhibit, not the full history of the events covered by it. You can give an outline detail for each section on the first sheet of that section, but always have at least one cover on that sheet.

Good luck at Prague.

K-E exhibit

Knud-Erik,

I'm also unfamiliar with the material, but I did notice in Frame 3, Page 10 you refer to "Poste Restance" - this should be "Poste Restante".

K-E Exhibit

K-E, Good luck with your exhibit. I know nothing about the area, and very little about European exhibiting so can't contribute much in the way of suggestions. It is a different way of exhibiting compared to US. We usually only "allow" one page with pure text.

Liverpool "lozenges"

That new marking I posted a few days ago now has an identifier - M23a.

Larry,

I didnt see your email.  Matt

Praga2008

Dear friends
Thanks to a kind person at Third Reich Stamp group, my exhibit are now been proofread and I have finished setting it up. But I would be very greatefull, if you will take a look at it and see if my philatelic tems are correct and I'm open for critic of any kind.
My time is running out, as I'm going to deliver it in Copenhagen at Thirsday (a nice 4 hours train ride each way - cheaper than sending it by mail!)
Here are the links to the frames:
Frame 1.: http://sudeten.bizland.com/Prag08/frame1.htm
Frame 2.: http://sudeten.bizland.com/Prag08/frame2.htm
Frame 3.: http://sudeten.bizland.com/Prag08/frame3.htm
Frame 4:  http://sudeten.bizland.com/Prag08/frame4.htm
Frame 5.: http://sudeten.bizland.com/Prag08/frame5.htm


Best regards and thanks in advance.

CSA

Chip G: Yes, I have those links, and the information is very good, especially Garrison article published in 1913!

I am trying to find a specific reference to the postage exemption for express envelopes containing money. The law (or regulation) dates from the pre-war period. If I cannot find a specific reference, I'll have to assume that the CSA provision for all laws/regulations compatible with the CSA constitution was in effect.

I was just hoping to read a sentence that said "Packages containing money are exempt." The closest thing I have is PMG Reagan complaining that express agents are permitting false money-content declarations to evade postage.

Seaposts of the U S A by Roger Hosking

Seaposts of the U S A by Roger Hosking is now available. Pre-publication discount available until 1st September. Order forms and book details are located on the TPO & Seapost Society publications page.

Confederate Post Office Regulations

Scott T:
You must be aware of these, right?:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/postmaster/postmaster.html

See section 6 of this doc:
http://tshaonline.org/publications/journals/shq/online/v019/n3/article_2.html
(well referenced)

and another link to another contemporary doc:
http://tinyurl.com/4ovcy6 

And the referecne from Leonard Hartmann:
Official Documents of the Post Office Department of the C.S.A. 
Reprint by Theron Wierenga of 13 C.S.A. postal documents including the 10 Postmaster General reports, instructions to postmasters and special agents and a list of post office establishments. One of the few recent reprints where both the contents and the rarity of the originals justifies the reprint; the other being the U.S. Mail and Post-Office Assistant. 1979, 
400 pages, two volumes, edition of 200, regular edition, $120.00 

Try googling:
confederate post office express company

Chip

Scott T --  Yes -- general volume of CSA provisional laws, followed by 4 or so pamphlets of CSA  postal laws.  USA PL&R except where modified.  There may possibly have been a semi-official published set of regs for which I am searching

CSA Regulations

S - If there are any, I have never seen them. I only assume, in the early period of the CSA office at least, they continued to use the Federal systems that had been used prior to June 1861.

Regulations

Richard F:

Are there any similar regulations for the CSA post office?

Although money packages carried by express in the CSA were supposed to be exempt from postage charges, some of the earlier ones have postage. I'm wondering if there are regulations which clarified the exemption for money packages vs letter mail.

It's relevant to the book I'm working on with Steve W.